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Post by Castellian on Jun 22, 2006 11:48:54 GMT -5
If you lost a character, don't play that character's brother, father, sister, son/daughter, etc. Be creative, think of something knew. Let it go.
I promise that you will live.
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Post by Joliette Thorne on Jun 22, 2006 22:18:52 GMT -5
Sweetie, here I have to partially disagree with you (fancy that ) and say that yes, it is the suckage when people lose a char and immediately invent a long-lost son or daughter who is the -identical- character to the old one. But sometimes playing the offspring of one's old char is expedient to the conclusion or continuance of a long-term rp, and as long as it's done well and is rp'd out in a believable way, I see no problem with it. I played Mythrins' daughter for quite some time. A draconian, child of Memodrix the dragon and Myth, the albino drow. Atemra carried on her mother's work with the Temple, though she had her own personality, skills, friends and so on. I found it challenging to play her as a child, and having Memo be her dad instead of playing his spouse. I rp'd her going off to the druids for her own safety, and her return months later (coz c'mon, I dun have sixteen years y'know...) as a young adult to earn the right to take her mother's place. Lots of good rp, and when I had created Tene as an alt, kind of for fun (alting is bad m'kay) and decided Tem was the one to go, I had her leave the lands. She was a great char and I was glad to be able to finish up stuff with the Temple, which we'd worked so very hard to achieve. Just an example, but to say that playing the child of one's char is bad rp is kind of a narrow statement, I think. - Sal
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Post by Castellian on Jun 23, 2006 13:24:56 GMT -5
On Family, It has always been considered a form of metagaming or powergaming to play one of your character's kin, especially in the higher echelons of the online community. I've been a part of various games on a myriad of mediums, and I can say without any hesitation this is almost always a rule enforced not only by a system's administration but by their players. The reasons for this are extensive, and I'll try to address them fully. Now, like with any "rule" there are to be exceptions, and clearly my dearest has been in a situation that could be considered one. I'd chalk that up to her being wonderful at just about every literary venture she takes on, but we're attempting to argue these points and with that in mind I can't give her too much credit when her view opposes my own. (Nomatter how tempted I may be to rant and rave about how wonderful she is. ) The primary problem with a player taking on one of their former character's family is an issue of IC/OOC crossover, particularly when it comes to motivations. Family members are bound by love, but this isn't a primary motivation for any of us. I doubt anybody can honestly say, "My dad worked as a salesman, so obviously I want to be a salesman." What I'm referring to, of course, is this "unfinished business" idea that seems to become a consistant aspect of a family member's role. Almost always they feel the need in a game (because of a player putting his motivations first) to finish what their predeccessor started. The play may be fun, but it's structurally unsound, and tacky. A term I grew fond of when I played on Armaggeddon was "a literary stain". The second problem, still in the matter of importing IC/OOC information, is the inability for many to change the group of people they work with regardless of their character change. So, instead of a fresh outlook and face and voice, we've a clone that's changed their emotional title, but not their emotional position. This is stale, and poor play. The third problem I wanted to address is the bending of past histories in order to make these things work. Time progression in general is a remarkably poor instrument to use on an RPG. Time progressions destroys the relevence of age, an aspect of characterization that is very crucial in the development and maturation of an individual. Games like Hollow that do not enforce a standard age struggle with a serious problem. According to Hollow cannon the Gods were 10,000 years old and created the races of Hollow no more than 5,000 years ago. Yet, if you read the average clicky bio, various people are posting being well over a few thousand years old. My point? Age progression is a very similar, and very poor attempt for someone to -MAKE SOMETHING WORK OVER ALL SENSE-, and a hint of OOC motivations being forced on an IC situation. That said, I recognize that the primary function of the Cabal is to make sure all the members enjoy themselves and have a creative outlet to use. I would like to believe, however, that we're also attempting to set a standard for Hollow that will lead to improvements in the way that RP in general is carried out. Because of that, as a rule, I think our members should avoid playing the kin of their own characters after their characters pass away, or are retired. I trust all of you and your abilities, but if we're to stop some of the worst forms of RP (like the sibling clones and etc.) we have to set the example ourselves. -Caste
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Post by Cuki on Jun 23, 2006 17:43:22 GMT -5
He is correct for the most part. I am guity a bit of this fact dispite how much I do so as to make each of my characters dynamic and original. For the most part when people do spawn off their old characters the purpose is unfinished business. Usually, as I have seen it on Hollow, the first characters dies and only to have a child born. This child grows up faster than a fruit fly only to somehow inherit every power or skill the parents had. In my own case I did not do this. Ishta was a very-very different character from both Cuki and Shateiel. They grew up relatively slow--over a year or two--before I reintroducted them and neither shelters the same abilities. The actual reason why I created Cuki and Shateiel was for them to act as opposites. At first they had no connect with Ishta. However do to my extremely slow character development and even more sluggish spreading of my skills--i.e. getting people to notice me or even been known--I choose to adopt them into his story. Also there was the fact that Ishta's disappearance was unexplained, I never leave things unfinished if I can help it.
In the second matter Hollow's players repeat...often. Regardless of their own skills the player would rather not make up something new. This is slothful for the most part. I very at fault here, but more from my own personality than anything else. I have difficulty attempting to be something that I am not. It is hard to think like a completely different person. Although I'm a bit personally attacted to Cuki, most of the time his actions are from the question I ask myself "What I would do." Cuki is just a slight purifcation of this. Which is why I have difficult playing Shateiel whom is suppose to be not-so-good. I have tried before and every time I fail. It is also another reason why I have a hard time writing normal stories. All-in-all it makes me a bad writter, a weakness I admit openly.
The third issue is more because most people do not have time to mature someone as they would in the real world. This isn't so much a problem because it has to be done. It would very-very hard to pull it off naturally. Yet for those that suppose to be thousands of years old, I take that for a boiling crock of crap. One I always avoid by making my characters unremarkable Humans. Something like that is not only hard logically--how could anyone truely understand a thought process of someone that sees years as days?--and creatively. The latter more on the fact of what is called: "So what?" Somehow making your character so old makes them powerful? Bah!
Let me be honest, though. When you look at it, problems like those always pop-up. Say in the case of magic or even power instead of time. How is one suppose to measure it? A person can be very old to the game and a good writer, but have a weak character or vice-versa or even a mix of anything. I say this because it is a problem I encounter constantly. Most of this just happens. It is a dispute because people are always trying to make their characters the 'best' of everything. As Cuki I must deal with both people that think they are better than him at hand-to-hand fighting (mostly wanna-be jack-of-all-trades) and mages that refute the fact that he is immune to their power. Both skills I earned and developed over the two plus years I have had Cuki. They are something I created and mastered as both a writer and character. I know that other players have issues with this fact as well. Anyone that has skill in RP, though, do understand how to submit along with sometimes being overpowered. Simply it is difficult to measure power just as it is "make" time.
So in the end what end should this rule be enforced? What manner of expectations should there be for the Cabal?
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Post by Joliette Thorne on Jun 23, 2006 18:42:17 GMT -5
Castellian wrote:
Doesn't it stand to reason then, that we might set the example by writing long-term plots and rp'ing the roles within those plots well? I.e., managing to rp siblings, offspring, without resorting to the tackiness so prevalent in games that such play has become a no-no?
And when I say 'unfinished business', please be sure I meant not to pick up exactly where the former character left off, and follow the actions that char -would- have taken. But to continue the story, from the viewpoint of an entirely new persona. Cuki, from what he's just said, and I both managed to have our char's children be thier own people. And yes, Atemra did carry on her mother's work, eventually, but in a way Mythrin would never have approved of, and in the end was removed from her leadership position because of it. Still, I got to be there for the story I helped create, was able to keep contributing to it, adding new elements as I went. Self-indulgent? Maybe. But I simply wasn't willing to drop months of work and walk away from it. I liked that story, and enjoyed the roleplay of the people who played and co-wrote it.
Might not a similar stricture apply to those who like to play a character that never truly 'dies', but has thier consciousness migrate from body to body? This is quite a creative idea, and I've seen it done well, and I've seen it done quite badly.
And therein lies my original point. It isn't unreasonable to want to play a part in stories that occur over generations, in my opinion. But if it is to be done, then let it be done well and with sensitivity to the problems inherent in doing so, which Caste has outlined so thoroughly.
Next point, the issue of age, since it was raised. Yes, having characters claiming tremendous age is a problem rife in Hollow. But do we really give them the creedence they often demand by doing so? I don't. Now, if a char has existed since the very early days of Hollow, there might be a validation for the claim. Otherwise, it's merely a device to garner additional 'power' for a char which is indeed, as Cuki put it, a steaming crock of crap. However, until admin decides to enforce a set of rules that prevent such idiocy, it's going to happen. The best we can do is ignore it.
A similar problem is the claim to some divinity that doesn't exist. "I used to be a god/goddess but I forgot" is kinda tacky and doesn't make sense. And should that player decide to have thier char regain thier divinity, would any of us really bow down and say "Oh hell yes, let me worship you?" Hardly.
As to the point on expectations... Cabal had never been a clan to openly recruit. In having the remarkably astute (at least in that regard) Tene choose folk for the offer of membership, I have striven to have her choose those who show consistency and care in thier rp, and a willingness to be part of a story (or let Cabal be a part of thiers)over the ability to use big adjectives and gallop about winning duels. And above all, to be able to be unselfish in thier rp, to play a part in someone else's plot rather than aiming to make it all about them. Okay, it's kinda been "the Tene show" in these intitial stages. But now Cabal is established, and her rp is on the way to being done, I expect others to share thier rp, and celebrate the stories of thier clanmates.
When we talk of expectations for members, it should be kept in mind that Cabal is not an elitist clan. We have members who are not highly skilled writers, but nevertheless play thier chars consistently and well. I don't wish people to think that they have to aspire to some dizzy height to be able to be a part of what we're doing. Just to play sensibly, and give a damn about creating a great rp environment, with nice folk who like to be creative, rather than destructive.
Anyways, it's good to discuss this sort of thing. I hope for more input, further points of view.
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